William Gattis - On gentrification (clip)
Interviewed on April 16, 2026
William Gattis (WG): We talk about the land being deeded for the [Hargraves] Center but it actually began with people like, I think, someone named Mr. Cole and someone by the name of Hackney. I can find out the information from Burnis Hackney. But in the early part of the community, they were community leaders who thought about a place. The background was that Black people did not have any place to go for recreation. We can trace it back as far back as I guess, 1937. Chapel Hill Newspaper would have something about that time. This area was referred to, like so many others, as areas that were worse than some of the ghetto places in New York City and that was a condition that we found ourselves in. You’ve already mentioned those things about not having proper town services. It was almost like it was an inconvenience of the Town to serve the Black community. So, Black children were getting into trouble so Hargraves Center became a place, at that time Roberson Street Center, a place that could be created so that kids would have a place to go and to stay off the streets and out of trouble. So, that was beginning. You get the beginning of Roberson Street Center being built but they didn’t have all of the funds to complete it. So, when the Naval people came in [during World War Two] and had no place to stay, there was an agreement that they would complete the basement, so that they would have quarters to live because they weren’t allowed to live in areas other than Hargraves in the town. So, that’s how you get the basis. Now you all have mentioned something that I wasn’t quite aware of because I thought the Center was named with regards to the name of the street. I never knew where the street name Roberson came from. And then now we have Mr. Hubert whose last name, and I had not made that connection as part of the history. But those were those rudimentary beginnings of the Center itself to have a place where we could go and not really get into trouble because a lot of kids would be getting into trouble in the town and, because of the situation at that time, it didn’t turn out very good for them nor their parents. So, that’s how we get the rudimentary beginnings of Hargraves Center. And I think the thing that’s connected to Mr. Peerman was the thing with the pool itself, when they were able to hire people who weren’t Black to be lifeguards and it was like a kind of integration of the pool. And that time, and Kathryn, I might have gotten a little bit ahead of myself. But anyway, that was part of the early history. The conditions that were worse than any, being relegated to an area that was really not viable for parents or their children and then forced to live in those conditions and you become an inconvenience for the whole town of Carrboro and Chapel Hill by existing. So, through that, from those backgrounds, you get people who are resourceful and brilliant and have visions about what a community should be and that’s where we get the rudimentary beginnings of Hargraves Center and all those things that make us as we move forward. What we are and the possibilities and we talk about gentrification but it was actually, when it comes down to it, came up with a CER Community [] Removal. And that’s where we are now when you get to… you have gentrification that starts out that you actually.
Rudy Jackson (RJ): You talk about gentrification, about when did that start?
WG: Well, let’s say it’s in the works but you actually get it coming to the forefront during the late 50’s and early 60’s.
Kathryn Wall: Already in the 60’s?
WG: You see because when you get it relegated you don’t have nice words, and then they come up with a nice word for it and it’s gentrification when you are actually being removed. But if I come into this community and I buy a house and I’m renting this house now I am what you call now property managers. Let’s just say we are at the time we are now. So, I’m a property manager so what I do is, I buy a house in the Black community because it’s affordable for me now and I rent it to white people and I rent it at a rate that you can’t afford to rent. You see, so you are being slowly removed from the community that you grew up in because, not only can you not afford the rent for the house but you live there now. Say if it was your house. You can’t even live in the house you grew up in because somebody has bought it and increased the rent…
RJ: You say that this occurred during the 50s? I saw that later.
WG: No, the whole idea is…What I’m suggesting here is it was occurring all along and at the point of the matter when we are being born. When we become more sensitive to the things that are going on around us, then our eyes are opened and we begin to see it. Now we may see it in the 50s depending on our age, we may see it in the 60s depending on our age, but it’s been happening all along. We’ve been relegated to the area all along. It didn’t just happen you see. So, this has been happening. So, now I’ve got a house and I’m renting it to white people at a rate that you can’t afford to live in this house. And, slowly, because you don’t have a place to stay or a job that can afford that kind of rent, you are being edged out. And those people who can afford it, who in my experience have been white, and then you get the influx, not because of their fault but because they have the resources to do it and I don’t. You see, so now we get to affordable places to live. Why? Because now I have to have the money to afford a place to live although I grew up in this community. So that’s just an aside y’all about how we get to Hargraves and the backdrop for it.
